Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 47 of A Storm of Swords, in which we cover Chapter 73 (“Jon”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 73: Jon
What Happens
Jon shivers in the cage lowering him down the Wall, and curses himself for thinking he could be as good a son as Robb, and thinks now he will be remembered as nothing more than an oathbreaker and murderer. He thinks he should have stayed in the cave with Ygritte, and hopes he gets a chance to tell her so in the afterlife. Slynt had told him that morning of Maester Aemon’s letter in support of Jon. Slynt thinks Aemon a fool, but offered Jon one last chance to prove his loyalty: Mance Rayder has asked for an envoy from the Watch, and Jon will go. Jon points out that sending Jon will only anger Mance, but Slynt doesn’t care, because Jon’s orders are to kill Mance, not parley with him.
Jon reminds himself of Halfhand’s words, that the realm is more important than either his honor or his life. He knows that he will die no matter the outcome of the assassination attempt, as Slynt and Thorne intended. He arrives at the bottom and heads toward the wildling camp. A lone rider comes to meet him. It is Tormund, who laughs when he finds out who the Watch sent to talk with Mance. Tormund chats with him companionably of mutual acquaintances as they head to the camp, and is sad to learn of Ygritte’s death. Jon thinks she died with much more honor than he will.
They arrive at Mance Rayder’s tent, and Mance comments he is very stupid to come back wearing a black cloak. Jon replies, “What else would a man of the Night’s Watch wear?” Harma Dogshead and Varamyr Sixskins urge Mance to kill Jon, but Tormund says they should let him talk. Varamyr has taken on Orell’s eagle, so Mance knows just how depleted the brothers’ reserves actually are. Jon and Mance go into the tent to talk.
Dalla and her sister Val is inside, and Jon tells Val he is sorry for Jarl’s death. Mance explains Dalla’s time is near, so they will stay, and Jon thinks of being foul enough to murder a man under truce in front of his wife while she is in labor. Then Mance shows him a great horn, which he says is the Horn of Winter. Jon asks why he hasn’t used it then, and Dalla tells him that sorcery is “a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.” Mance tells him that he could win against the Night Watch with sheer numbers, but not without great cost, and in the meantime the Others, who grow stronger as the winter deepens, are encroaching on his rear, and they have defeated all the tribes who have stood against them.
“If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more…”
“But once the Wall is fallen,” Dalla said, “what will stop the Others?”
Mance tells Jon to tell the Watch that if they open the gates and let them pass, he will give them the Horn, and the Wall will stand “until the end of days.” Jon thinks of the chaos that would follow allowing the wildlings past the Wall. He asks if Mance is a true king, and Mance answers that the free folk follow fighters, not lineages. Jon asks if he is strong enough to make his people keep the king’s peace and follow the laws of the land, but Mance laughs that they will not kneel to either Winterfell or King’s Landing; they will make their own laws.
Jon knows Slynt and Thorne will dismiss this offer out of hand, and asks what happens if they refuse. Mance answers that Tormund will sound the Horn in three days. Jon thinks of trying to smash the Horn here and now, but another horn sounds outside, and they go to see. Varamyr says something is coming from the east; Jon asks if it is the Others, but Mance says the Others never come in daylight. Then Varamyr (looking via eagle) says it is riders in black. Mance turns on Jon, but Jon says he knew nothing of it; to himself, he thinks there is no way Slynt had the men to pull it off anyway.
The rangers approach, and the wildlings attack haphazardly. Mance comments that the riders look like Eastwatch men, so maybe Jon didn’t know. Then a scout shouts that there are more “iron men,” a host of them surrounding the camp. Mance curses and heads off, ordering Varamyr to watch Jon. Varamyr watches the battle via eagle, but something sets the eagle on fire, and Varamyr screams and writhes in agony at its death. Val comes out searching for Mance, because the birth is starting, but Jon tells her Mance has gone to fight. The wildlings are in utter disarray, unable to form up in time to meet the columns of riders approaching from the east, the northeast, and the north all at once. Jon thinks it is far too many for Eastwatch, and wonders if it is Robb or Joffrey.
Jon tells Val she’ll have to handle the birth herself, and says he will stay on watch outside. The mammoths have managed to shatter the center column, but the others are executing a pincer move. Many of the free folk are fleeing, including Varamyr. Jon sees Mance go down under a cavalry charge, and thinks it is over. Then another wedge of horses approaches, flying a banner with a flaming heart on it, and Jon hears the knights chanting:
“Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!”
Jon turned away, and went inside the tent.
Commentary
AHAHAHAHAHA I have no idea why this is cracking me up, but it is. STANNIS TO THE RESCUE!!! Or, if you’re a wildling, STANNIS TO THE RAMPANT SLAUGHTER!!!
Also: Well, that was unexpected.
Man, I can’t even remember what the last thing was we saw happen with Stannis. Oh wait, it’s sort of coming back to me. No, never mind, it’s gone. Crap.
…Okay, I went and tracked that post down (even though I kind of hate to do that), because I was seriously drawing a total blank, and oh yeah: Davos stole Edric, and then read Stannis a letter. Which I speculated at the time was the one about the wildling incursion he’d seen earlier, but the text didn’t actually say. So, I guess I speculated accurately. Go me!
Still doesn’t answer the question of whether Davos got his head lopped off, or whether Edric got away, but I assume we’ll find that out sooner or later. I continue to hope for “no” on the former and “yes” on the latter, obviously.
Also, you gotta kind of love that it makes perfect sense that Stannis would be the only king in Westeros to actually heed the Night Watch’s plea for help instead of being all whatevs, I got my own problems, kthxbai. I guess sometimes humorless, dogged adherence to the letter of the law is a good thing. Who knew?
Of course, perhaps there is also a political advantage to the move. I can’t quite think of what it might be, other than good PR (“Who saved the Wall? I did, bitches!”), but hey, maybe that’s plenty. Also, I’m pretty sure I remember Stannis saying he didn’t have the military puissance to attack any of his rivals at the moment anyway, so maybe he figured it was better to put them to use somewhere. Waste not want not and alla that jazz.
(Sometimes I am flippant about things. I don’t know if you’ve noticed so I thought I’d point it out. What?)
Oh, wait, I thought of a non-snarky possibility: maybe Stannis plans to use this to come at the Greyjoys from an unexpected position!
Look at me, thinking all tactical and shit. *is proud, even though probably wrong*
That must have been quite the trip, though, man, to get all the way to the Wall from Dragonstone. I’m assuming they went by sea, in which case it’s a good thing Dragonstone is on the opposite side of the continent from the Iron Islands, eh? Very sneaky, Stannis.
But on to the actual subject of this chapter, my boy Jon. Who may be having doubts about his worthiness to be a Stark, but as far as I’m concerned he proves his Starkiness beyond a doubt just by the sheer amount of shitty situations he manages to get himself into.
…Erm, though that could also be considered to apply to Lannisteriness. Or Baratheoniness. Or… you know what, never mind, it is clearly a total logic fail to try and ascribe any trait to any particular House in ASOIAF based on shittiness, because that shit is spread evenly, yo. It’s like a freshly-plowed cornfield up in here.
Annyway. Though, this shitty situation seems to be going at least a tad better for Jon than most of them have (knock on wood), so there’s that. Jon didn’t have to kill Mance, yay! Not that I’m especially emotionally attached to Mance or anything (good thing, since I’m pretty sure he’s dead), but I’m just glad that Jon didn’t have to become all dishonored and stuff (and, also, dead) by killing him, or trying to. Because that is a seriously dishonorable thing to do, and I would like to add a nice hearty Fuck You to the pile of them I have already acquired re: Alister Thorne. And Slynt, but especially Thorne. Dude needs to die in a fire, pronto.
Speaking of dying in a fire, what the hell was that with the eagle? Not that I’m not happy that a bird harboring the festering remnants of a dude who really really really wants to kill Jon is no longer in the picture, but what… oh.
Melisandre is on the field, isn’t she. Well, uh. Yay?
Also:
[Varamyr:] “Once a beast’s been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him.”
Reaaallly. *strokes hairless cat thoughtfully*
Yeah, so, I will be amazed if this doesn’t become a significant plot point somewhere down the line. I’m just saying.
So I guess the question now is whether Jon’s going into Mance’s tent to protect Dalla, or to smash up the Horn. No reason he can’t do both, I suppose. Assuming you even can smash the Horn of Winter, because most Magical Thingamajigs (especially Major and/or Prophesied Magical Thingamajigs) tend to come with an indestructibility clause. Of course, this is Martin, who eats fantasy tropes for breakfast, so who knows. Maybe the thing’ll crack if Jon gives it so much as a harsh scolding, I have no idea.
That said, I tend to think this Horn of Winter is WAY too huge a Chekhov’s Gun to be so easily dispatched. In fact I think it’s damn near a guarantee that the thing is going to get blown at some point, in the typical spirit of “it ain’t an apocalypse until EVERYTHING has gone to hell.” So, yeah. Wall fall down, frozen zombie incursion pending, whoo.
But hey, looks like Our Dubious Hero Stannis will be there to meet it!
Which is interesting, because that development seems (if I’m recalling correctly) to be continuing the unfortunate trend of Melly not being wrong in her predictions ever. Which is worrying, because that means she might also be right that Stannis is going to fail because he didn’t butcher an innocent kid. Which is infuriating, for reasons which I should hope would be obvious.
Ugh.
In other news, I’m kind of feeling really bad for the wildlings right now. Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place (literally, on one side at least). Especially when you find out Mance was really just trying to save them from the Others, as opposed to just wanting to raid the shit out of Westeros. And now they’ve been basically ground into hamburger. I mean, there was no other way to respond to them from the Night Watch’s (and Stannis’s) point of view, even without knowing about the Horn, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t suck. Because it does. The free folk got screwed, y’all, and even though their particular cultural thingies weren’t always my favorites, that doesn’t mean they deserved it.
But hey, both Jon and I were totally right when we predicted that the wildlings’ lack of training, organization and discipline were what would bring them down. So, er, go us, I guess.
And, yeah. Here endeth the ramble, O my Peeps. Go forth and enjoy what I hope will be a lovely autumn weekend, and I’ll see you next Thursday!
Actually, the free folk wanted to get away from the Others, but Mance could not promise to stop their raiding. He knew his not-quite-subjects.
Leigh, you are completely adorbs.
That is all.
Stannis saves the day! Hahaha, yet another point in his favor when he seemed so unlikeable from the getgo…
I love Tormund. His line about why his daughter likes Longspear Ryck continued his excellence for me. Har!
Nice recap, Leigh, as always.
I remember this shocking me in a first read but it makes total sense on re-read. Stannis can’t attack any of the big boys, Davos reads the letter from the NW seeking help on the Wall, someone says “Brilliant – let’s go act like a real King of Westeros and save the day!” Win/win for Stannis and the realm. Not a bad boat ride either – simple trip up the east coast to Eastwatch, and then a westward run on the north side of the Wall. No Greyjoys anywhere nearby. Very much looking forward to one of the those fire and ice combinations we’ve head so much about (Mel and her Lord of Light v. the North).
Yes, Slynt and Thorne are major southerly appendages, if you know what I mean. They even dissed Maester Aemon – ugh. Our boy Snow was in an impossible situation and would have been dead and dishonored if Stannis hadn’t come marching in. Loved the touch and go of Jon’s banter with his former compatriots, especially Tormond, who is up there with Dolorous Edd for the funniest lines.
Chapter 73-Jon:Wow. Socks knocked off. I had some time last night, so I read this as a whole piece. I’ve got to say that this chapter can totally be filed under the “I didn’t see that coming” category.
Thinking back, GRRM did give us a couple of clues. Davos had read the requests and shown them to Stannis and then we had the report that Stannis had gone somewhere.
But, Stannis showing up and crushing the wildlings caught
me completely by surprise. The start of the chapter was normal enough. Jon is thrust into another sure death and I’m trying to think how he will get out. We get the “Horn of Winter” and Mance doesn’t just kill him and I’m thinking he’ll talk his way out and then BAM–this part of the story could now completely different.
Stannis is now in the North and I don’t think he is going to let the current leadership of the Wall just muddle about. I’m guessing that Slynt and Thorne are not among Stannis’ favorite people. Also, is he going to sweep down from the North–seems like a better position than Dragonstone. Also, I’m guessing that Melisandre took out the eagle–maybe she is more useful than for creepy shadowy assassin things.
Speaking of Dragonstone, just how far did he have to sail and then march to get to this battle. Quite the tactical accomplishment. He also seems to have arrived with the rest of the Rangers and maybe some other allies–I couldn’t tell from the various banners that Jon saw.
Cool, cool chapter with great potential ramifications.
Let’s see, it doesn’t look good for Mance or the rest of the free folk.
I always thought “warging” to be a thing of the old gods of the north. Is the fact that a priestess of the “red god” possibly just fricaseed a warg with her mind powers an indication that the “red god” > the “old gods”? (If she is indeed on the field).
Also, I don’t remember but isn’t the “red god” the same one as the one Jaquen H’gar operated under with Arya back at Harrenhal? Are Melly and Jaquen in cahoots?
@6: Not necessarily, it’s just an indication that birds are flammable. As for Jaqen: no to the first question, no indication thus far in the text to your second, but here there be spoilers so tread carefully.
The whole last-minute save when there appears to be no way out is so much more effective when Martin does it because you never know if he’s going to do it at all.
I actually think Stannis went to save the realm because it’s his duty as the rightfull king. No other motives, no manouvering, no compassion, no emotions, just doing his duty. That’s another thing I love about aSoIaF: even if a rabbit gets pulled out of a hat, everybody remains true to their character.
Finally, I thought Mel (presumably) burning the eagle was a nice touch.
SH@5 – by map, not a difficult trip from Dragonstone to Eastwatch (several hundred miles, then take a left turn at the isle of Skagos), and not excessively far by horse from Eastwarch to Castle Black. Nice tactical accomplishment in any event. Re the troops, Stannis has his vassal lords with him (many did not go over to Renly or came back after his death), plus the Eastwatch NW.
@6 – I know the answers or likely answers but enough is taken from future books that I’ll avoid spoilers.
I think you are overlooking something else that might have some significance later on, which is that (roll over for potential spoilers/speculation): Mance Rayder’s son is being born, and now someone else with king’s blood (albeit the King Beyond the Wall, and not a true king) is within reach of Melly Mel. She is going to get some crazy ideas on what to do with this baby, I think.
Anybody see In Bruges? Stannis & Davos reminds me of Harry & Ken:
(LATER)
Rob@9:Thanks–I wasn’t sure of the map scale there and didn’t want to risk a search. And, thanks on the troops, also.
Leigh
{Jon} may be having doubts about his worthiness to be a Stark, but as far as I’m concerned he proves his Starkiness beyond a doubt just by the sheer amount of shitty situations he manages to get himself into.
I think by this point in the story official condition of admission into the Stark family is getting yourself killed at least once. Broken mind pre-butchering optional. Jon hasn’t managed to pull that off, though it’s not like he isn’t trying his best…
@11 IndependentGeorge
Way to give Leigh hope for Davos’ fate, dude…
So Stannis has turned up with a mounted army, how exactly is the Night’s Watch going to feed that lot?
@11- IndependentGeorge
I love that movie. Such an awesome blend of humor and just incredibly bleak situations. Kind of hated Seven Psychopaths, though.
@14-phuzz
Yup, that is an excellent question. I think we can safely assume that a writer of Martin’s talents is not going to ignore the implications of such an act.
Poor Dalla.
I do not want to think about giving birth in the middle of a war knowing your man may not return from the fight. When you can hear the sounds of the fight right outside the thin walls.
Nor do I want to think about it being freezing cold and the only “pain meds” you get is a stick to bite on.
Anyone else feel the Jon just gave a mental “screw it” by just turning around and going back into the tent?
@13 – well, unless she saw the rest of the movie…
From Leigh “Also, you gotta kind of love that it makes perfect sense that Stannis would be the only king in Westeros to actually heed the Night Watch’s plea for help instead of being all whatevs, I got my own problems, kthxbai. I guess sometimes humorless, dogged adherence to the letter of the law is a good thing. Who knew?”
This is why I love Stannis. I absolutely loved that the last we saw of Stannis was Davos giving him that letter, we don’t hear about him for awhile, and then he shows up HERE. It affected me just about as much as anything in the series for some reason. And is an example of fantastic characterization. Because ‘character who sticks to the LAW’ being shown to go too far is pretty common. But swinging it back around like that to show it in a positive light is not so common, not like that.
@14
It has been my impression that the Night’s Watch has much more of everything (weapons, armor, castles, arrows and food) than they have use for, since they’re undermaned. While the Night’s Watch is undermanned, the NW’s gift (the lands from which they get their resources and money) doesn’t seem so, since while the first one depends on people being sent north by the king (or by their own will) the latter depends on the demographic growth of people that already lived there, plus or minus migrations. From Bran’s and Jon’s POV we see that the places around the abandoned castles seem somewhat abandoned, but not the places around the occupied castles. And even though they’re abandoned, Jon and the wildlings did find a man on their way to castle black. So, I think the NW has much more food than they use and they could feed Stannis’ army and even spare some. I could be wrong, though.
To Leigh:
Very good. Your summary actually made me think more about some future developments and how they are foreshadowed in this chapter. Makes you see how GRRM has planned stuff. The problem is how long he takes to get there (in real world terms, the time it takes to publish books), but the story seems very well thought of.
Leigh – re the free folk and whether they are getting screwed, keep in mind that they wanted it all – go to the other side of the Wall and have no rules whatsoever. Not exactly a reasonable position for truly desperate people. Maybe Mance wasn’t the best leader for them … or maybe they brought at least some of it onto themselves.
I just don’t think that Stannis is so obsessed with the law as he claims. He is, but only if it works for him in some way. If he were truly obsessed with the law, regardless of how it affected him, he’s be searching the Free Cities for Dany to help her rise to power, becuase the Targaryens are the rightful kings. He can’t hate all these other “usurpers” while pretending that his claim to the throne is valid. The throne was taken from the Targaryens by his blood line. He has no claim that isn’t a usupers claim.
It just drives me crazy that Stannis pretends to be so in line with the law. He’s not. He’s just grumpy and cold. Until reading these comments, I didn’t realize people actually likes Stannish and/or believed that he really did keep in line with the law no matter what.
I think he’s at the Night’s Watch because it will help him or Melisandre told him to go … because it’ll help him. Stannis does things for himself.
Hi Liegh,
Long time reader, first time poster, (*chuckle* I’ve always wanted to say something like that). Any I just want to thank you for spoiling my latest re-read of what has to be my favorite fantasy series of all time. The reason it’s spoiled is I’m a fast reader, and whilst it’s taken you a while to get through this far through the books, it’s hasn’t taken me anywhere near that long.
So now I’m caught – on the one hand I love your blog, on the other it’s ASOIAF my favorite series. Do I go on reading Leighless until my next re-read, or do I slow the heck down and read along with you?
Seriously though, thank you for all the hard work you put into your posts. They’ve been throughly enjoyable!
This has been debated to death elsewhere, but I disagree entirely.
Dany is not now, nor ever, “rightful” Queen. The Targaryens won the throne by rights of conquest, and lost by rights of conquest. He has no obligation to support her, nor does anyone in Westeros. If she wants to take the throne by conquest, she can try, but should not expect anyone to bend the knee just because she’s a Targaryen.
If the Lannisters declared that Joffrey (or now Tommen) was not a Baratheon and instead claimed the throne by conquest (as Jaime wishes), then they would in fact be the rightful rulers. But because they are claiming it based on bloodlines, Stannis is entirely right to call them Usurpers. Stannis is Robert’s lawful heir, and he’s right to seek the throne.
A while ago, I posed the question: what if Tommen or Myrcella were legitimate, but Joffrey still a bastard? I say that Stannis would have supported whichever of them was the legitimate heir.
@23: I agree with this. Robert won his crown the same way Aegon did, through conquest. Dany’s claim is through blood of the exiled dynasty; Stannis’ claim is through blood of the dynasty that’s supposed to still be in power. Between the two of them, I would say a blood claim through a current dynasty is stronger than a blood claim through a past dynasty.
@24-MRHD
But the Baratheons had a closer blood tie to the Targaryens than anyone else, which is why Jaime or Ned didn’t end up sitting the throne. To be more precise, it was Ned’s belief in claim and legitimacy that led to Robert getting the throne. After all, both Cersei and Littlefinger told him in the first book that he should have seized the throne when he had the chance. He didn’t because Robert had a closer claim to the throne by blood.
@23, 24: Robert did not claim right by conquest. Robert claimed right by the most Targaryan blood outside the direct line (Rhagar, Viserys, and Dany). He only did so after eliminating the Royal line, but the fact remains that Robert maintained his connection to the Targs, specifically as a descendent of Aegon the Conqueror, to justify his rule. You can debate the right of the Targaryans to rule Westeros in the first place, but since alll 7 kingdoms united, the only change in the ruling line was Robert’s ascension. I’d say the Bolton claim to Winterfell and the North is much more dubious, as there are stories of the B0ltons being Stark enemies from thousands of years ago (like that tale of one of the Stark kings supposedly being flayed by a Bolton).
@@@@@ Hallie
I’m also one of those strange people who utterly despise Stannis (he can save six other NWs for all I care). Everything about that guy pisses me off, because we’ve diametral opposite characters and world views (and @@@@@ D.Moogle for me he went over the line more than once already. His lauded managing of the Siege of Storm’s End during Robert’s Rebellion makes me nauseous actually) but I’d never expect him to support Dany’s claim.
That the Targaryens still have this semi-claim is only because their exilation wasn’t that long ago. Sure they can try to get it back, but Dany will need some bigger Dragons for that.
@27 zambi76
That the Targaryens still have this semi-claim is only because their exilation wasn’t that long ago. Sure they can try to get it back, but Dany will need some bigger Dragons for that.
First she’s going to need a bigger boat.
Oh yes, the boat(s!). Minor logistic point that.
What I wonder is that once they find Robbis dead will Stannis try to bring the Stark Bannermen into the fold to Avenge Ned and Robb?
Stannis makes my heart glow. From the previous chapter:
“This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some. If he is gone, it can only mean he intends to resume the war. Most likely he will land at Storm’s End and try and rouse the storm lords. If so, he’s finished. But a bolder man might roll the dice for Dorne. If he should win Sunspear to his cause, he might prolong this war for years. So we will not offend the Martells any further, for any reason.”
…and then he shows up at the other end of the continent.
What a BAMF. But as excited as I am for his second wind, I’m even more excited for the next chapter…
Hallie @21: To offer a completely different but not exclusive argument* to the posters above: even if Stannis did compromise his principles previously, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t believe in them, any more than Ned’s confession to crimes he didn’t commit means he didn’t truly believe in the value of honor.
*(Ah, the good old defense in depth. “Today I will show that my client never met the plaintiff, that if he did they were good friends who never argued, and that if they did the stabbing was a clear case of self-defense.”)
Stannis is as human as anyone else in the series. Sometimes he makes bad choices for what he thinks are good reasons; sometimes he fails to live up to his ideals; sometimes he gets put in a situation where he has to choose the lesser of two evils (and Robert’s rebellion was definitely such a situation for all involved). Stannis has principles and tries to live up to them, which puts him ahead of at least 80% of the Westeros graduating class.
(Granted, maybe morality shouldn’t be graded on a curve. But nonetheless…)
Ned giving a false confession doesn’t mean he wasn’t a genuinely honorable man, and Stannis’ siding with his brother (and, indeed, rightful liege lord) against his rightful (but homicidally insane) king doesn’t mean Stannis isn’t a genuinely dutiful man.
He certainly does have a bunch of other negative character traits: pride, mercilessness, envy, probably more ambition than he cares to admit. Plus he’s probably just about the least fun person in in Westeros to hang out with on a personal level, at least outside the (sizeable) torture-is-fun brigade. But I don’t think his commitment to his principles is anything but genuine.
(Though I do think the issue of whether he can stay committed is a defining question of his character arc.)
—
Generally, I’ve always thought that the Stannis : Duty :: Ned : Honor analogy summarizes the situation pretty well.
Didn’t end so well for Ned. May not end so well for Stannis either.
The Terrible Targayananaeipo only became the potentates
by violence, war, and flames colored like copper acetate’s
the crown Ageon takes from a head he amputates
so in this situation, this writer never hesitates
to point out that it is fair game, indeed
for anyone else to take the crown
by conquest and then the rights proceed
to whoever now is the new conqueror in town
But if you gain your crown by Witangemot
Then you have a legitimate right
but if at the bakery of awfullness you say “Bag ’em hot
I like my iniquity bagels and pastries of blight”
and all in all act like a jerk
the Witangamot will depose
you, that’s how the things should work
But there’s no Witan in Westeros
Oh there’s no, no witan
no there’s no, no witan
no there’s no no wintan in West-er-os!
Remember the scene a while back when Stannis asked Davos what should be done about the people of some island whose lord had supported the Lannisters? Stannis argued that the people were guilty too because the fact that their lord was in rebellion didn’t absolve them of their own duuty to the crown, and Davos asked Stannis pointedly if that also applied when he had followed Robert in his own rebellion. Stannis was very uncomfortable with the comparison, and it was clear that he felt Davos had a fair point there. (And it also says a lot about Stannis’s character that he keeps Davos around precisely because he says things like that.)
So I don’t agree with Hallie et al. I suspect that, if Daenerys ever does show up in Westeros to lay claim to the throne, there’s a very real chance Stannis’s conscience will lead him to renounce his own claim and support hers.
(By the way, am I the only one who keeps thinking of Stannis as Westeros’s answer to Judge Dredd?)
The Lannister shituation (whoa… that was a typo, but I’ll preserve it because, hey) could stand to get shittier, I think.
@@.-@ I imagined it as brief stupification that there is somebody asking them for help.
Wow. So much love for a man that sent a demon to murder his little brother and was going to sacrifice his nephew for a blood ritual. This man is bad news. Glad Jon benefitted from his evil political maneuverings, but that was just a side effect of whatever new horribleness is coming from Stannis.
On Stannis and his claim: the rebellion against Aerys was based on his being murderously insane. It could easily be argued that his descendants should be barred from the succession because they might be, too. (Especially since at the time, Rhaegar and his kids were dead, Viserys was a child as well as, well, Viserys, and Daenerys was not yet born.) There’s even precedent for it – when Maester Aemon talked about the Great Council that offered him the throne before giving it to his brother, he mentioned that the infant son of Aerion Brightflame had been passed over for exactly that reason. So if Aerys and his descendants are out of the question, who’s next in the blood line? Robert Baratheon, through his Targaryen grandmother. And after him, since he had no legitimate children, it passes to Stannis.
It’s also worth pointing out that the Targaryens, after a particularly bloody war of succession early in their rule, did not allow females to claim the throne. So that’s another strike against Daenerys as the rightful heir. Of course, if you follow that principle, Shireen can’t be Stannis’s heir… Not if his claim is based on his Targaryen blood.
@JennB
Shadow babies are in the end just a weapon like swords and dragons. Renly was an usurper to the throne and had no claim whatsoever. Stannis, as King, had to vanquish the usurper. Also, he was going to sacrifice his nephew to a blood ritual to save millions of people. Stannis is far from evil and would be a much more effective ruler.
Danerys’s actions are evil, regardless if whether or not there’s good intent behind them. Anyone who’s read the fifth book could attest to the fact that she’d make a horrible ruler.
To two best rulers for Westeros are either Tywin Lannister or Stannis Baratheon(with Davos as his Hand).
@38 JennB
Wow. So much love for a man that sent a demon to murder his little brother and was going to sacrifice his nephew for a blood ritual.
In Westeros that’s a mild 1.5/10 on the What-the-hell-Dude-O-Meter, so what’s your point?
@40 The Imperator
To two best rulers for Westeros are either Tywin Lannister or Stannis Baratheon(with Davos as his Hand).
I’d actually say Tywin by a fairly wide margin. He has the political savvy, unlike Stannis who is just too uncompromising (even with Davos at his side) to be able to rule successfully.
Leigh, I’m also a “long time reader, first time poster.” I just wanted to let you know that I love your writing. You may not ever see this comment, but I couldn’t in good conscience keep silent while enjoying your posts so much.
@41
I think GRRM may intend this perspective, but I’m not sure I agree. Tywin’s moral flexibility may be what’s best for maintaining his own rule of the realm, but it’s unclear whether it’s better for the realm itself. Stannis’s inflexibility is heavy handed, but compensates by making the rule of law more certain and fair. Stannis substitutes micro-stability for Tywin’s focus on macro-stability.
@38
Stannis’s treatment of Renly and Edric underlines his unyielding (though admittedly anachronistic) principle. The duties of subject to king and king to realm come before the partial claims of family members. It helps, of course, that Stannis struggles with each decision, and shows a fair amount of contrition. His principle would not mean as much if he were not confronted with so many difficult choices.
@40 The Imperator& @41 Randalator
NO NO NO Tywin is not even close to being a good ruler, the Lannister name is the most important thing to him not the people of westeros!
tower of the hand and boiledleather.com put it way better than i could, he has destroyed/laid waste to half of the seven kingdoms, couldn’t control joffrey, let his kids commit incest (and if he doesn’t know he is an idiot) – his being a bad father has done harm to all his children in ways that had/will have major consequences for the kingdom and lets hideous war criminal Gregor Clegane do whatever the eff he wants
yes he is smart with good war strategy/tactics but if you lived in westeros there is no way you would want him as ruler
the best leader from a small folk point of veiw would probably be Lysa Tully and/or Doran Martell for keeping their lands and subjects free from warfare
end rant
love your work Leigh, loving this reread
Nice recap! I think it’s from this point that I start to sort of a little bit begin to like Stannis. Oh Jon, all the emo feels for that kid. And you are so right about the Wildlings, maybe I’m a terrible person but I never really thought about how shitty this is from their perspective, I guess because we don’t have a POV from them.
It’s these chapters that remind me why I like book Jon so much, which makes me so sad about how apathetic I feel about him in the show (although he’s starting to get better). Dude ALWAYS gets stuck in the shittiest situations. And not sure I agree that this shit gets spread evenly – I think the bad terrible no good luck seems to be largely the Starks domain :(
I can’t explain why because it has been forever since I read the books, but Stannis has always been scary to me. I think it’s something to do with his ruthlessness, combined with his self righteousness, and his evolving zealotry that I find particularly terrifying. I also always felt that his supposedly righteous decisions where more self serving than right.
Look at me, thinking all tactical and shit.
OMG, I just realized “Leigh Butler” is actually Jesse Pinkman, yo.
That said, I tend to think this Horn of Winter is WAY too huge a Chekhov’s Gun to be so easily dispatched. In fact I think it’s damn near a guarantee that the thing is going to get blown at some point, in the typical spirit of “it ain’t an apocalypse until EVERYTHING has gone to hell.” So, yeah. Wall fall down, frozen zombie incursion pending, whoo.
I agree. It’s what I feared ever since I read of those prophecies/pictures Dany had at the House of the Undying in Quarth. The one about those icy creatures overrunning the Trident.
But I’m not quite convinced that Mance’s horn is actually the one, (that is Joramun’s Horn). I always thought that the horn found by Ghost at the Fist of the First Men, even though not very impressive and cracked, is of importance…
@38 and 46 JennB: I totally agree. Kinslaying is Kinslaying, even if Stannis didn’t do it himself and sent a Shadow instead. Stannis is too rigid and self-righteous to be a good ruler. Brittle like iron, as Donal Noye said.
@44 DorneSand
Lysa Tully? What? I– what? Have you seen the fuckton of crazy that woman carries? She shouldn’t be in charge of a dollhouse, let alone a kingdom with actual people in it.
re: Tywin
As Aerys’ Hand of the King Tywin Lannister ruled Westeros in all but name for two decades and it was a time of peace and prosperity. Peace and prosperity. In Westeros. For 20+ years. Let that sink in for a moment.
I completely agree that he’s a horrible father but he would make one hell of a great king.
This here is a great example why Jon is such an annoying character to me. He’s just about to make a major decision and suddenly the cavalry arrives, literally, to save his butt as usual and he doesn’t have to make the tough decision. Because we can’t have the Chosen One compromises his precious morality even a bit or pays the price for his actions…
His plot armor is ridiculously thick and time after time he’s saved from having to make tough choices due to incredible plot contrivances.
@50 Bergmaniac
You mean tough choices like not fighting alongside his family during the war, killing a superior officer he respects a lot, breaking his vow of celibacy to keep his cover, or betraying the woman he loves? Those kind of choices?
Exactly these, yeah. His buddies and his magical wolf forced him back when he decided to desert, the superior officer was about to kill him and it was instinctive self-defence, not a real choice, Ygritte pretty much raped him (besides there’s nothing in the NW vows forbidding having sex, so he didn’t break any of them) and when he “betrayed” her he was about to be killed by the Magnar’s man so no real choice again.
– Um, like everyone? Until post-modern irony and moral relativism reared their ugly heads and gave us a society rife with social problems and complex issues where everyone splits hairs over degrees of mistreating one another and selfish behavior and everyone is all relativism-yay when dealing with other people’s principles but stubbornly intractable about the ones to which they have their own emotional attachments, regardless of the illogic or inconsistency. Prior to say, 1950, no one in the world would have a problem recognizing Stannis as the good guy. Then everyone started with this “make up your own rules” nonsense (try that with physics or chemistry sometime; moral rules are the result of generations of experience in what works best for people in general and society as a whole – just because the value is not as inherently obvious as the rules against murder & theft doesn’t mean it isn’t real), and so we get Jaime & Cersei Lannister with notions like “juvenile defenestration is totes okay, because my hellspawn are endangered by an innocent kid wandering in on our illicit intercourse.
Meanwhile, even when tempted with false moral choices, the intractable Stannis’ nature or actions keep him from being pushed across the line. You might say it was Davos who stopped Stannis from going along with an awful course of action, but he was only in position to do so, because Stannis marked him out, favored him, and elevated him to that position. And the deciding factor in Davos’ promotion was his moral call. Someone above referenced the plan to sack the home of the lord who surrendered to the Lannisters, and blamed Stannis for that, but it was his uncle-in-law & Salladhor Saan who came up with the plan. Stannis presented the plan to Davos to see what Davos would say about it, and the only support he gave it was acknowledging the practical feasibility. He does that in order to move the discussion to the morality, because that’s what he wants to hear about. He doesn’t need a Hand to back him up on tactics or strategy, because he’s good at that himself – even Tywin respects his ability, calling him the most dangerous of their enemies, despite having the weakest position and fewest assets. What Stannis was doing was testing the morality of his potential Hands. He knew Axel was wrong, but he was hoping there was someone who would call BS on it. Otherwise, if there is no one to advise you on right and wrong, you might as well pick the guy with superior family connections. He doesn’t say to Davos “Good points, you’ve convinced me,” he says “You’re right” and gives his own rationale. Stannis knew it was wrong, and promotes Davos, because he sees s guy who is just as moral as he, and thus puts him above the lords he doesn’t trust.
Isn’t that what good leadership is about? Finding the right people to do the right things?
Moral absolutism (at least with tried and true morals) is like buckling your seatbelt every time you get in the car, instead of waiting until the roads are slippery or you’re going faster than normal. Sure, it might be unnecessary effort 90% of the time, but you’re less likely to screw up trying to wing it at the last moment.
The thing is Stannis only sticks to the law when it benefits him and is quite the hypocrite in this respect. He proclaims “It is every man’s duty to remain loyal to his rightful king, even if the lord he serves proves false” yet he chose Robert instead of Aerys when he had to make that choice himself. He forgives treason and other crimes of powerful lords when he needs them and their men (like the Stormlords who followed Renly) but is merciless towards people who aren’t that powerful, like Davos 15 years ago.
He didn’t kill Davos, just chopped off some of his fingers, in Stannis’s book, that is being merciful.
And I can see how Jon has ‘plot armour’ (nice phrase!), but it’s also because he’s incapable of making a sodding decision until someone literally holds a sword to his throat. Imagine going out to dinner with him, he’d take all bloody night to decide what to order.
(I’m told that threatening people with physical violence if they don’t make up their bloody mind is rude, who knew?)
20. RobMRobM – Good point. It’s like a bunch of Vikings showing up at the border and acting surprised when they aren’t welcomed in to rape and pillage.
@38: Ah yes, poor sad Renly. The same Renly who was giving orders on how his brother’s corpse should be handled right before he was made a corpse instead. Besides, it’s shown that Stannis didn’t even really know exactly what Mel was doing; Mel told him he saw Renly’s death, they got it on, then Stannis had a dream of his brother dying. Mel never actually told Stannis that she was sending a shadowbaby to kill Renly, and Stannis wasn’t aware of his role in his brother’s death.
Sure, his refusal to see the truth of his involvement in the death of his brother after the fact isn’t great, but at least he wasn’t casually talking about his brother’s corpse with every intention to see him dead like, oh I don’t know, Renly was in regards to Stannis.
As for Edric, the only reason Stannis considered it was because Mel was fervently telling him that if he did not sacrifice Edric then Stannis would not have the power he needed to see humanity through the Long Night and literally everyone in Westeros would die, including Edric Storm. Yes, Mel’s claims on that front seem dubious, but if it WERE true then should everyone in Westeros have died, including Edric Storm, just so Stannis could have kept his hands clean? Wouldn’t it be far worse to let millions die through your own inaction than to kill one through your action, if killing the one would save the millions?
Not a decision I or anyone would ever want to make, but if that truly were the situation, then I’d argue killing Edric would be the lesser of two evils. The dilemma posed to Stannis may (or may not) have been a false one, but there was nothing evil about his reasoning. It was a hard decision in a hard world.
IMO Stannis knew what would Melisandre do to Renly, otherwise he wouldn’t be there making ultimatums when he had way small army and zero chance of military victory.
And besides, condoning a murder of your brother and rewarding the one who did it (which Stannis did) is way worse than just talking about it (which Renly did).
@60: He was making a general statement in a completely different context, not writing a philosophical thesis that would cover every contingency.
Edit: Accidently edited my old post rather than posting a new one. For those confused, this post was originally about how the dilemma of Robert v. Aerys was not one of liege lord versus king for Stannis, but one of elder brother versus king. Stannis repeatedly speaks of the duty a younger brother owes to his elder, both in the context of how he did his duty to Robert and how Renly owes him the same. It is obvious that this familial duty is one Stannis takes very seriously.
When the two duties conflicted, Stannis made the decision that the duty to the elder brother superseded the one he owed to his king. He tells Davos that the choosing was not easy, and it was obvious that he felt torn in two directions.
I’d just quote Stannis again “”It is every man’s duty to remain loyal to his rightful king, even if the lord he serves proves false”.
No exceptions for brothers.
I’m in the camp of people who didn’t realize that there were so many people who love Stannis until I started getting into the internet fandom. During my read and re-read I have to say I didn’t like him, but I can understand what some people see in him as a prospective ruler for Westeros. I think my frustration with him comes from him ignoring good advice from Davos and his first Maester regarding Mel and certain other events in the earlier books, not to mention accepting the murder of his own brother (at least tacitly). Kinslaying is a terrible crime in Westeros, the fact that he didn’t physically commit the act doesn’t really change that. I also think it’s kind of silly to assert that he wants to be king only because it’s his duty, I think a large part of it is that he felt slighted by Robert (and most of Westeros for that matter) for a large part of his life and thinks it’s finally his turn, although in his mind he certainly believes he’s doing it for the right reasons. That being said I was certainly excited by his rescue of the NW at this point and did start rooting for him a little more, since he’s certainly doing more to protect the realm than any of the other kings to this point.
@56 Black Dread
It should be noted that the Vikings were no worse (and no better) than most everyone else with a sword/axe in those days. But they were pagans and therefore “bad”, while Charlemagne was butchering Saxons and therefore was “good” in the eyes of the Church.
Stannis always reminded me of what Galad would have become if he were bitter about his place as, basically, NOTHING in Morgase’s house in The Wheel of Time.
Stannis’ definition of right and wrong may not be the same as ours, but it is amazingly consistent, and he follows it the vast majority of the time. The fact that, of the thousands of decisions we have from him over the course of this series, the same two or three examples of his “hypocrisy” keep coming up means he’s not a hypocrite, but a well-written character. No one can hold perfectly to their own values. Sorry. Doesn’t happen in real life, shouldn’t happen in fiction. In Stannis’ case, these “exceptions” quite definitely prove the rule.
Call me crazy but the Wildlings at this point are still way too full of themselves to make peace, and they are mostly composed of people that think rape is a good way to prove your manhood and oh ya, if you cut the guys balls off you can be a spearwife.
Yay. I don’t want those folks anywhere near me, so they needed a little more desperation. Let’s hope Stannis got the ball rolling.
Brandi @@@@@ 61
Kinslaying might be a terible crime, but not when the kinsman you slay is sending an army to attack you with explicit orders to kill you in an effort to usurp your rightful claim. Also, according to Westeros custom and precedent, you can justify lots of stuff by trying to bring back dragons. So if you are going to cite the practices of the Seven Kingdoms to condemn Stannis for killing Renly, you have to give him a pass for thinking about killing a bastard (accorded a lesser status by Westeros custom) to get dragons.
People can type until their fingers turn blue about Stannis’ “rightful claim” being spurious and being truly motivated by ambition, but that does not change the fact of his rightful claim. He does have the best claim, and only fought when that became a fact. He never once disobeyed, and in fact, did much of Robert’s dirty work, holding the family castle, through a long siege, at the point of starvation, while Robert fought to win back his fiancee by conceiving a bastard on a hooker during his flight in Stoney Sept. After all this, plus taking the ancestral castle of the enemy, Robert treated him spitefully, and he never balked or made common cause with Robert’s enemies, even fighting them in Greyjoy’s Rebellion. Whateer you want to say about his ambition, resentment or envy (and the latter two of which he had more than righteous cause), the fact remains that he was dutiful and faithful to his brother, and only advanced his claim when he had a right to it.
The only bad things he has done was kill a traitor who refused his offer of amnesty and he contemplated killing a boy as a human sacrifice because he was assure by a source he tested and found credible that it would enable him to save thousands of lives. Had a prettier or funnier or more titilating protagonist grappled with the same choice it would have been a Serious Moral Dilema. But the a significant proportion of same general audience that thinks Jaime is redeemed because of his backhanded compliments to someone who tried to save his life, are writing him off as evil. Stannis contemplates killing a child to serve the greater good, and he’s written off even after he rides to the rescue of the kingdom. Jaime actually attempts to murder a child, boasts about it to the child’s widowed mother, in between propositioning her, and because he keep makes a token gesture toward doing the decent thing, in a manner that doesn’t inconvenience him in the slightest, and which is also a secret, passive-agressive middle finger to his father, it’s all Squeeeee! We WUVS him!
And touching on the Melisandre magic issue, why do so many readers(particularly people who seem to scorn Stannis for taking up with a religious fanatic) seem to accept her claims re: the divine nature of her magic? Stannis himself even doubts R’hollor while admitting her power (oh, duh. Stannis said it, so it must be wrong; moral rigidity always equals stupidity in contemporary entertainment). There are lots of other people who do supernatural things without ever hearing of R’hollor. Daenerys herself did what Melisandre promises to do with Edric – raise dragons out of stone through blood sacrifice – and she’s more or less theologically adrift. There is no sign that the warlock of Qarth are even aware of R’hollor, but their magic is certainly legitimate. The Children of the Forest had the same religion as the Starks and they seem to have done some impressive stuff. Melisandre is just tapping into whatever powers are rising in the world, the same as the pyromancers with their accelerated wildfire production or the rejuvenated warlocks or the hatching dragon’s eggs.
Renly only attacked Stannis because the latter invaded his lands and besieged his castle. he was totally in the right here. Stannis had exactly zero proof for his incest claims, which he himself admits to Davos.
@65 et al, Is it only that Stannis has the strongest factual claim that is generally known? If all the cards were on the table, would Robert’s oldest bastard son have the most legitimate claim? The Seed Is Strong, after all. But I’m really not sure how Westeros’ rules of succession regard bastards.
Ok I just figured out it was my browser keeping me from formatting my posts lol.
@@@@@65
I don’t posit that Stannis is evil or that his claim to the throne is invalid, and I can see the logic behind a lot of his choices to be honest. I just stated that I don’t find him to be a likable character or one that I really want to root for. That’s just my personal opinion. The way that many of the characters in the early books describe him might have something to do with that.
I’m also not sure that with all the politics going on in Westeros that he would really turn out to be an amazing king. He might be capable of it in a different place but I feel like his manner and his way of viewing everything in black and white terms would lead to too many people plotting against him and he’d probably end up dead. Obviously this is just my speculation.
@@@@@ 63
I agree with you on the Galad comparison, I feel like maybe what’s missing up to this point is a Stannis POV where the reader actually gets to see what kind of internal monologues he’s having to come to his decisions. This could also be why I haven’t taken to him as a character as much as other people have, it’s *possible* I’m able to empathize with POV characters more than non-POV characters lol.
@@@@@ 67
Bastards can’t inherit or succeed after their fathers unless they are legitimized by the throne, I believe.
@68, None of the Five King contenders have gotten POVs. It’s how you can tell all their days are numbered.
@70, Fair point, we’ll see if my feelings for Stannis change after a second re-read. I can really see both sides on this one but for me the “Yay Stannis!” feeling just isn’t there. There are some other things to factor in but we aren’t there yet on this read so I’ll wait for Leigh to catch up :)
@63 Great call in the Stannis-Galad comparison, I had the same thoughts, though Galad is more likeable (and I’m not a Galad fan). I’ve never liked Stannis, but no one likes him (that’s why I don’t get people being Stannis fanatics). The whole point of Stannis as a character is that he is the most rigid upholder of the law, has the most legitimate claim to the throne of anyone in Westeros (because Dany isn’t there) and has hardly any chance at taking the throne because everyone hates him. Stannis is one of the rare characters you encounter in literature who does things legally and (for the most part) morally, and yet readers don’t root for because the character is just so unlikeable, despite being one of the “good guys”.
Every chapter that concerns Stannis is controversial ;)
I agree with the idea that a continent gained by conquest might just as easily be lost by conquest. Dany has been fed the Targaryen Kool-Aid by Viserys since she was born. Of course she sees the Baratheons as usurpers and anyone who supports them as the usurper’s dogs. But I’m surprised that even some book readers buy into the idea that the magical Targaryens are intrinsically suited to rule all of Westeros, because, umm…they conquered it 300 years ago and then lost it again in a war?
To be honest, I don’t support the idea of rule by conquest, but it’s the only thing that worked in the feudal era that Westeros is set in. If Dany manages to win back the seven kingdoms with her dragons, then it’s fair that she calls herself queen. But if she’s on the other end of the world with an ocean separating her from the continent she’s allegedly the queen of, then she’s just another pretender. Stannis isn’t my idea of a King either (he’s way too unyielding, and doesn’t seem to realize the mere concept of mercy), but he’s not a hypocrite for not recognizing a princess from a defeated dynasty as his “rightful” queen.
Ahem. Rant over. This chapter really was one of my favorites, probably because I never saw it coming. I had Stannis pegged as the “most likely king to die” since the minute I saw him. And now he’s the only one of the 5 kings that still lives, AND he ends up saving the NW, which none of the other kings even tried to do. I’m still expecting him to die in the end (the guy would win Westeros or die trying, and I don’t think he’s going to win Westeros -_-) but at least he won’t go down in the history books as a forgotten king.
Stannis does have the best claim to the throne (except Tommen, he may not be legitimate, but he is already wearing the crown). He also does try to do right. I actually agree with all of this, but I also feel like he is ripe to become a religious tyrant who would mainly be remembered for cutting down weirwoods and burning septs. He doesn’t even really believe in Mel’s religion, yet he has fully embraced it and is ready to play Messiah for her followers.
Stannis and Mel believe that sacrificing Edric would “wake” a stone dragon. Whether this would ultimately save lives, well…
Wait, remind me again why killing Mance is dishonorable. He is the enemy.
Because he went to Mance in the guise of an envoy, ostensibly to treat with him, and considered it a dirty trick to do so and then kill the man in his own tent (even if they are obviously at war). That’s my guess, anyway.
Yeah, it’s kinda like that whole guest’s rights things. For war to happen in a civil manner, there have to be some rules that are inviolate, like not killing your guests, not killing envoys, and not hiding assassin’s in envoys, which was why Tyrion’s gambit to free Jaime was so disastrous.
He hid mercenaries in the peace envoy that returned Cleos Frey to Riverrun. That was BAD BAD BAD.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t love Stannis in the sense of “wow, I would love to hang out with that guy!” or thinking he’s the best. I just admire his consistency as a well-written character, and I found his actions in this chapter to be totally consistent with how he had been portrayed, yet it caught me totally off guard. I absolutely love when that happens–so often, ‘twists’ are either totally predictable, or so out of left field it felt like the author threw it in just because it was surprising. Here, it just felt like it followed so naturally from what we know about Stannis I had to love this chapter!
The thing that just tickles me about Stannis, is that at this time, he’s “won” the War of Five Kings by being the only one left standing, but he rules nothing.
@@@@@ The Horn of Winter: I always wondered why all the readers were certain that the Horn will actually work. All we have are snark and grumpkin stories that the freefolk have been passing down through millennia (?!) about an artifact that is able to single-handily bring down the mightiest structure build by men. Now this artifact is supposedly retrieved from the grave of some old King Behind the Wall (who did not use it to destroy the wall, which back then was not need against the Whitewalkers, because… erm… no reason whatsoever). And this horn is oh-so-conveniently found when it could the possibly used to blackmail the Night Watch. Moreover, even the stories agree that it was never tested.
@@@@@ Legitimacy: I think the question whether Stannis could be considered a legitimate king should be analyzed from the social contract viewpoint. A bunch of nobles overthrew the rightful king. The fact that the Targaryans were rightful monarchs of Westeros is beyond doubt, as they created the Seven Kingdoms (as a single political entity). Now anybody can either rule the realm forged by Aegon using Balerion’s flames only as a successor of the Targs. And Robert was ruling as there was a general compromise between the rebellious nobles. His successor has to rely on the said compromise, as he does not have 300 years of legitimacy to back up his claims. People who say “we might have liked your brother/father, but we don’t like you”, which is not treason, as there is no precedent for them to believe that kingship should be passed within the same dynasty. For a couple of generations only coercion could be used to keep the Iron Throne, as legitimacy has not been build up yet. There is probably no written law “the heir to the House Baratheon shall be king after the previous dies”. Both Stannis and Jeoffrey are attempting to build this legitimacy, whereas Robb and Greyjoys are/were more like: “we have no legitimate king, we don’t like the agreed on king, F you, we go home as Kings in the North/ of the Iron Isles”. But if Danny comes along, she has 300 years of legitimacy to back her up – so the events will undoubtedly get interesting :)
@81 CarpeComputer
re: Legitimacy
Actually, Robert was chosen king not as a compromise but because he had Targaryaen blood (from his grandmother who was a Targaryen) and therefore the strongest claim.
But even aside from that, in Westeros all lands and titles are passed down the (preferably male) bloodline. Even if Robert had just been a compromise that still wouldn’t change the fact that after his death his royal title would go to his eldest son, because that’s the way it works in medieval societies. If you want to break that line, you have to do so by force (i.e. war) and you won’t have legitimacy until after you won and consolidated your reign.
Yet another long-time-reader-first-time-poster butting in here. Hi Leigh, if you’re reading this, I wanted to let you know I have enjoyed your writing immensely.
re:Stannis: For me, the most interestic aspect of his character is the way he draws heated discussion whenver he comes up. I used to be pretty indifferent of him until I started frequenting reading forums. No other character causes half as entertaining arguments.
That being said, I could never understand why of all the morally dubious characters it’s Stannis who earns such intense dislike from some contingents. I mean, this is the guy who burns people alive for the god he doesn’t believe in, in order to get the crown he doesn’t want, so he could save the continent full of people he doesn’t even like. Determinator personified. Sure, he’s exasperating as hell and not my first choice for king, but damn the man is made of awesome.
@82. I’d say that Robert was chosen king as a compromise BECAUSE of his Targ blood. Not so much to soothe Targaryen loyalists (who hated him anyway) but for the sake of general stability. If it was just one of the Lords Paramount placed above his technical equals there’s no way they would have lasted more than a generation or two. The erstwhile kings of seven kingdoms have thousands of years of history one-uping each other, but house Baratheon has been a bastard branch of house Targaryen from the start.
The way I see it, presenting house Baratheon as a ‘heir’ of house Targaryen was meant to avoid the exact situation where Robb’s bannermen point out that they bent the knee to dragons, who are all dead, so they should rule themselves again. Obviously it didn’t work, hence the legitimacy issue. After all, ‘legitimacy’ has nothing to do with ‘legality’ – it’s not about what is right, but what is accepted. As long as more people are willing to bend the knee to Tommen despite the whispers of his parentage it means he’s more legitimate than Stannis.
Daenerys will have her own legitimacy issues, thanks to her dear father’s actions. 300 year tradition didn’t stop Aerys getting his throat slit after all and he was the one who turned the ‘half the Targs are crazy’ thing into common knowledge.
Thanks Aerona and Aeryl for answering my question. :)
@81, 82, 83 RE: Why Robert was chosen.
Robert WAS chosen for his Targaryen blood, but the narrative strongly implies that that was soley because of Ned and his honor. Can’t get into too much more without speculating on things that haven’t been completely revealed at this point in the story.